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  • piticu
    started a topic I was robbed by Circlebet

    I was robbed by Circlebet

    Circlebet - hxxp://xxx.circlebet.com (CircleBet is a brand of WL Services N.V. a company registered in Curacao. Address: Wilhelminalaan 13, Curacao, registered under number 124926 (0) and operates under the License No. 1668/JAZ issued to Curacao eGaming, Authorized and Regulated by the government of Curacao.
    Customer card payments in WL Services N.V are done through contracts with EU-company Tain Malta Ltd with reg. number C33034 whose registered address is 75 Bisazza Street, Sliema SLM 1640, Malta and has a Class IV gaming license no. LGA/CL4/132/2000)
    - took from me 1281 Euros letting just my 200 euro deposit to withdraw in my account after i made a request for outpayment with full amount, obviously after i finished the requiered turn over. The reason for this is an unbelivable one, because i break a rule who was not a rule at the moment when i opened my account with them. The rule in case is by they saying -
    "(i) placing single or multiple bets of a value of fifty percent or more of the bonus on any single game"You made a deposit to our sportsbook of €200 and your maximum stake should have been €100 for each bet and for that reason our bettingmaneger have decided to cancel your bonus and winnings made by such."
    When i opened my account (22.02.2013) and deposited, the rule was:
    "Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount." (200 euros in my case) - The rule come from the 200 euro 100% bonus terms and conditions."

    They had a few and very rare replies at a lot of emails of mine like:
    "Dear Adrian,
    We apologize for not answering your latest emails faster.
    Its impossible to monitor every single bet as they are being completed for T&C violation.
    That is why this occured at the time when you tried to make a withdraw.
    Since it clearly states that general terms of service apply together with the current rules it falls on you as a player to follow these rules.
    To make it even further clear in the future we will lift this T&C to promotion section to avoid any unclearty in the future."

    my answer:

    "I don't understand much. As i said, my first bets were 200 who left me no choice of winning cause you add new terms (if you really added) in dicordance with what i signed up and you applyed retroactively to my account. Also, nowhere is written that i should follow everytime before i place a bet the new terms and conditions (thing that uncontiously did anyway -looking at terms frequently could i say and didn't seen the half of deposit rule - but if i was seeing it no chance of following, never heard of such enormities, it's just a THEFT really).

    CircleBet reserves the right at any time change the conditions or cancel the campaign. - This rule from my terms that i think you rely on is a standard one on all promotions and it reffers for your knowledge to your right to change the terms even if a promotion is dated to last a certain period of time and yes the new player should follow the new terms. Doesn't mean that the players who signed for other terms are do to follow it. It is my right to accept some terms or not and i accepted what i accepted -"Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount." . As a result, a bookie could add some impossible to do turnover requirments anytime, act who by common sense, goodwill, legal and fair point of view could not be done. "Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount.". - this is what i signed up with you for! I accepted THIS, and played respnsably.

    They replyed:

    "Adrian,
    It is understandable that any player who breaks the T&C will state his/her case that nothing is wrong in the way he/she acted. We can not have a player breaking the general T&C in this case you did break those general T&C that were implace when you activated the bonus.
    We are not trying to create badwill or build a case of stealing players money.
    The bonus money is CircleBet's money and any winning from it.
    Stealing would be taking your original deposit.
    We will not change our decision in the matter since we have the right according to the T&C to void the bonus and any bonus winning when you bet more then 50% of the bonus amount."

    And my last reply - without an answer is:

    "You're a bookie, a player deposit with a purpose - winning and winnings are his money by the time he achieved them and i dind't break the rule when i activated the bonus, the rule was "Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount." not "50% of the bonus amount.". I have 1281 Euros seized. After i activated the bonus was none of my business how you change the terms, obviously the new ones could affect the new players who will or not to accept. You said 50% but you must be contient that you could bring any rule after a player signs that is impossible to achieve and by this act you basicly ruin it. Give me my money back, you got to understand that the justice is on mine side and you're doing that just because my money are in your possesion and you don't want to pay.

    Give me my money back, 1281 Euros, i will write even to Santa Clause of what kind of "business" are you doing, Malta, Curacao, all betting sites and forums,****, Maestro, **********, Skrill, Tain, Curacao police, Romanian police, i will write everywhere what you did to me, somebody have to help me to received my fair earned funds."

    I already made a complaint about a two weeks ago to their licence (Curacao) and i didn't received any answer, at least an "we will be looking at your case" or an automated response. I writted to lga Malta and Sportsbookreview to, no answer as well.

    I have seen on Sbr some similar cases with Pointcasino who are the same shit, same owners. Worse is that nobody seems to have anything to do about this, cases alike are multiple and this Curacao fucks and their acquaintances continue to steal undisturbed. How this licenses are given and what importance they have? What's the deal with them? How could you take somebody money with a reason that don't last in any way and go away with it? Is frustrating! All this with support by big names like ****, **********, Maestro, Skrill and so on who get fees by transaction with these thieves.

    This particular bookie - Circlebet doesn't even have the options to check your transaction history.
    I know that a vast majority of bookies have the rule "we could take your money if we want" in their terms - well is not legal nowhere. There are bookies not some "give me a donation" societies, even if they must think so.
    Last to say, of course, i must admit my fault to, you could expect to some troubles with this unknown bookmakers, still, they shouldn't be able to do what they want with your's money - stealing them more precisley.
    Thank you for any support, excuse my english and avoid these thieves.



  • piticu
    replied
    They finnaly paid me half of my balance last week.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    Yeah, there are good bookies with toilet paper licences, i'm not surprised. In my particular case Circlebet/Tain are scammers. If you bet with 0.01 more than in terms stated you're allowed to BANG! they took all your money, they retroactively applied rules in particular with the clone PointCasino, my case is here, a debate concerning the whole bloody industry is not for me, cause i'm not feeling prepared. But Curacao, TAIN and their bookies are scam, and Curacao licensed bookies cannot be trusted, I am including here Pinnacle to, Europe is regulating and they will probably fit to the new rules. We, as gamblers know that nothing is sure anyway. Is the wild east nowdays in OG, but Is also the future considering the fact that mob, countryes and gamblers and even..the actors we bet on, are all happy with. I divagate a little, here is none of this about, TAIN's and implicitely Curacao they're pure scam and last one small thieves. With a lot of guts and nerve.

    Leave a comment:


  • G-Man
    replied
    PinnacleSports has a Curacao licence but is arguable one of the best sportsbooks out there. 5Dimes another bookmaker with a Costa Rica licence that may as well be written on toilet paper is a real bookie. These guys are serious and are not deposit only bookmakers like so many shady operations run by guys that have no clue. They might not be scammers, but over their heads and do not actually have the money to pay you. It is easy to start a bookmaker operation online, you hardly need any up front money. That is unless you are licenced in particular secure locations where players funds are protected. Curacao, Malta I bet do not have any due diligence. They just would give anyone a licence as long as they pay them a fee.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    I also have some experience. Take Gutshot for example, same Curacao "licence" i belive. They gone bankrupt, but in the meantime they tried to lie in good manner, they eventually payed something, they moved to other side and so on, but those TAIN's are unbelievable. No reason whatsoever, no answer, no money, no nothing. And worse of all, when they give you a reason is so ridiculous you can feel them laughing at you, their employees copy paste this from a list eventually and take a commission.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    Indeed, I will probably not going to deposit now in all dumps just to have something to complain about and made the world a better place. You're wright about the money and annoying either. But still, i really belive that should be some other institutions who may handle those kind of frauds. I will contact them eventually.

    Leave a comment:


  • G-Man
    replied
    Originally posted by piticu

    Anyway, avoiding them shouldn't be the solution, we're not in jungle. This cases about players being robbed is the result of this avoiding low rated bookies. "Oh they took my money!!! - Is your fault their not high rated" Well a high rated might be tempted sometime to do the same, unlike those they are harder to fight with and get justice even on forums, most of the players are happy with and do not care about it. The bookie will still remain High rated because he payed 80% of winning players.

    You are obviously annoyed at losing your money to thee clowns. The best thing you can do is annoy them enough for them to cave in. As mentioned, the Tain operations and licence has nothing good and they have no dispute resolution bodies like IBAS you can contact.
    Learn from this and make sure you research the companies you bet with.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    Anyway, avoiding them shouldn't be the solution, we're not in jungle. This cases about players being robbed is the result of this avoiding low rated bookies. "Oh they took my money!!! - Is your fault their not high rated" Well a high rated might be tempted sometime to do the same, unlike those they are harder to fight with and get justice even on forums, most of the players are happy with and do not care about it. The bookie will still remain High rated because he payed 80% of winning players.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    Is true what you're telling, but i get involved with Circlebet because of their bonus offer.

    It can't be that simple!

    First, is fraud by any side you're looking at. Basically they took my money without a reason.
    Their rule counts that much as at least them respect their letter, like with the high rated bookies, who cares about Curacao? If Curacao is nothing, ok, we're on trust here, but come on, if goes like this, everybody could do a betting soft and rip players of money.
    **** ********** Skrill, and other big names are somehow involved with. They have their transaction history to, this is the thing with electronic transactions, but on the other hand i never understud how phishers or hackers do not be caught giving the fact that the money could be followed.
    Of course, this should be asked or better complaining about at a Police station rather than a forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    We can speak to Circlebet, but we cannot promise anything.

    Players don't seem to understand that to build a community that bookmakers
    would consider credible, they need to stick around Bookmakers Review a bit
    more.

    If you come over only when you have a problem and that's all the bookmakers
    see, they have no incentive in doing the right thing.

    More in general, Bookmakers Review recommends players to bet only with
    bookmakers rated 4 or more. If you bet with low rated bookmakers or non rated
    bookmakers, it's only a matter of when (nor if) you will have problems with
    them.

    The answer about your question on the Curacao license is really in the lack
    of replies from the regulator. Surely if they were seriously interested in
    regulating (or pretending to regulate) they would have at least provided you
    with an answer.

    Kind regards

    Pierluigi Buccioli
    Bookmakers Review

    This I belive?

    Leave a comment:


  • BMR Forum
    replied
    That's actually BMR's reply to you containing a quote from the official answer we received from CircleBet back in April.

    As long as you came back to post that, you should probably post the first part of that email exchange where we tried to explain you why bookmakers have no incentive in doing the right thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    This is the answer they send to BMR when enquiered about my case:

    We spoke to Circlebet and they told us the rule saying "It is not legal to
    bet more then 50% of the bonus amount" was always mentioned in the general
    term & condition. They later added it to the promotion so you could see
    clearly the rule you had broken.

    We will report the story, but there is really nothing else we can do as
    Circlebet also said they will not add any other comment in relation to the
    case.

    Well, I obviously shown the contrary but the truth was never on cards regarding those pigs who copy and past diverse issues from a list of this, randomly, when it come out about taking someone funds.

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    Hello,
    I come back after a while with this issue with Circlebet, not much happened meantime, their answers were always the same, basically when they did answered speech was about a final decision that could not be changed under no circumstances disregarding with this all the arguments I bought in. At least in other's case replied with “Please come back to us if you have any questions” . [TAIN STEALS] (those paranthesis help to delimitate phrasese giving my lack of knowledge on formatting the writting on forums)
    I admit also that I let the thing off for a while without following it anymore tired to talk about nothing, me and the bookie both knew that this was a theft not a misunderstanding or me breaching their rules, their attitude even if the last case was true was not right by any circumstances coming from a reasonable bookie [WL SERVICES N.V. STEALS]
    I read on SBR that their management changed and will review the complains, continuously receiving promo offers from them ( who was not the act of somebody who will disappear soon, I could mention also the absence of many other threads complaining about them how I was expected to happen and not last a bad financial period of mine made me to reopen this beliving that I have a chance now. [CURACAO EGAMING STEALS]
    So trough my new researches by reading more carefully the following post from my SBR post "also ROBBED by CIRCLEBET by piticu, mihaitza’ s one hxxp://forum.sbrforum.com/sportsbooks-industry/2214778-bookmakers-big-bonus-200-a.html
    The post in cause:
    MIHAITZA POST:
    "I've been lucky, this guys aren't thinking much when stealing, just come with a reason whatever, not really matter, in my case I owned proves (Skrill print) and luckly I got my funds back, now I see that was not a mistake. About 1300 disappeard from my betting account and they replied:
    "Hi Player
    We have to inform you that our sportmanager have reviewed your account and accourding to our rules for our Sportsbonus you have clearly violated it by wagering on:
    Real Betis v Malaga - 1X2 - Real Betis (2.20) stake: €180
    Evian Thonon Gaillard v Le Havre - 1X2 - Evian Thonon Gaillard (1.96) stake: €180
    You made a deposit to our sportsbook of €125 and that should have been your maximum stake.
    Our bonus rules states:
    "Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount."
    Due to this fact we have no other choise than cancel your bonus and winnings made by this bonus and leave your initial deposit in your account.
    If you have any questions please come back to us." "
    At least they were right about the rules, but my deposit was 202 with fee and everything around 194 I send a print and in 3 or 4 days I got it back and eventually withdraw. Uhh..
    ""Hi Player
    please note that we had a minor error in our system and your account was mixed with our security check with another. You are correct that your first transaction to Sportsaccount was as you said and your bonus is now activated again.
    Your funds will be restored to your account and we hope you accept our appologies.
    We have added 10 Freespins into our Casino game " Soccer Challenge " for you as a minor gift for the inconvinience.
    Please come back to us if you have any questions."

    I deduced that the exact same rule was opposed to both of us only in different ways, at him for breaking it (not true of course- thing recognized by them to) at mine for breaking other rule when in fact this rule was on terms and I followed it by letter when I signed up with them. The rule were talking about is like in mihaitza description: Our bonus rules states: "Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount.". I contacted him and found out that he opened his account just two days after i did. So in that time the rule was this like I mentioned in my first post, not what they say “"You made a deposit to our sportsbook of €200 and your maximum stake should have been €100 for each bet and for that reason our bettingmaneger have decided to cancel your bonus and winnings made by such." Or “We will not change our decision in the matter since we have the right according to the T&C to void the bonus and any bonus winning when you bet more then 50% of the bonus amount."”. [CURACAO LICENSING COMISSION DO NOT EXIST FOR PLAYERS]
    Now, of course I have prints and I should thank mihaitza for providing me with those that demonstrate this. Other users who opened an account with them around 22.02.2013 could also confirm the rule - Maximum stake per bet must be equal or less then the deposit amount . The bookie could check this to by looking at other players history who took the promo then based on their stakes proportional with their deposits do a fair assumtion. Sure, some of, might wagered little stakes that qualifies for both rules implied but I doubt that the majority not tried to bust faster and consequently wagered max. Like was any doubt for somebody at one moment that this bookie is right, for me at least, the cause is now clear based on facts and research. [POINTCASINO CIRCLEBET NEDERBET NORDEANBET FALCONBET GOLAZOBET BOOKIES ARE ALL OWNED BY WL SERVICES N.V. USING TAIN AND REGISTERED IN CURACAO ALL OF THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE THIEVES!!!]
    They asked for a print at some moment of the terms by then, I belive I just copy pasted rules, still is not necessary giving the proves all over the internet. I opened my account on 22.02.2013 and found on several forums from internet the mentioned terms, threads who contains posts with the rules I opted in posted on 20.02.2013 two days earlier from the day I opened my account and I will provide screens with those either summed with Mihaitza’s case who opened his account after 2 days since I do it on 24.02.2013 and the rule was opposed to him, the discussion about the veridicity of my saiyng is ended. [BETNGO GR88 GEOBET BULLDOG 777 AND DEFUNCT MOOREGAMES WHO IS GONE WITH PLAYER'S FUNDS ALL USE TAIN]
    But for Circlebet all of this is not enough! I bring those facts to their scrupulous attention and after a meeting that lasted about a week with the CEO’s of TAIN, CURACAO EGAMING and the small businessman farmer who own WL SERVICES N.V. ( a company registered in Curacao) and probably his three busty daughters who may be the customer representatives, betting manager’s and failed whale’s fetish webcam chat girls selfemployeed or freelancers they agreed to the following conclusion: [ALL CURACAO LICENSED BOOKMAKERS LOOK JUST FOR STEALING PEOPLE'S MONEY, THEY ARE MOBSTERS OR PILFERINGS BOTH WAYS THEY WILL ROB YOU AVOID THEM WITH ANY PRICE]
    “Hello Adrian,
    I am sorry for not getting back to you earlier.
    We needed to run your case internally with the management and it has taken some time.
    The person in charge for your case that also decided to swipe your account is as you know no longer working for CircleBet.
    It is very clear you have broken the general terms and condition and we have no way of getting a solid feedback around the terms and condition for the promotion and if there was any other issues involved in your case from this person.
    We would however like to find a solution to your case in order to make you happy.
    We will reimburse your account with the amount that was swiped from your account which was €1284,36.
    The money will be added as a very loose bonus with the following conditions.
    The money has to be wagered three times in our sports book.
    This means you will have to wager €3853,08
    You are free to wager this money in any way you want in the sports book.
    There is no restriction of maximum amount.
    There is no restriction of which betting line you can or cannot use.
    The bets has to be placed on odds 1,50 or higher.
    We will set the wagering time for the bonus to 180 days which should be more than enough time to clear the wagering requirement.
    Once you cleared the wagering requirement you are free to withdraw or continue playing.
    If you agree to this solution we will activate this money within the next 24 hours after receiving an answer from you.
    Best Regards
    Support Team”

    I refused of course, I don’t belive those guys have any intent to pay something and for what they offered me they have the “play for fun” option. So ultimately I made other proposition, namely to give me at least half of my balance of 1284 Euros back > 642 Euros, meaning that I give up at their bonus or could be considered like was never on cards or smth like that. This is still pending for some weeks, another meeting of CEO’s of TAIN, CURACAO EGAMING and the small businessman farmer who owns WL SERVICES N.V. ( a company registered in Curacao) should take place and we all know that this last forever.
    [Google POINTCASINO ALSO OWNED BY TAIN,WL SERVICES N.V AND "LICENSED" IN CURACAO AND SEE THEIR HABITS]
    My answer to “It is very clear you have broken the general terms and condition and we have no way of getting a solid feedback around the terms and condition for the promotion and if there was any other issues involved in your case from this person.” –cannot be reproduced in here even If is considered that mostly 18+ people should be around.

    Now, it doesn't seem to be n option here to add prints so I will post a link with those included and the post from 20.02.2013 with my terms that were by then posted. hxxp://www.rpoints.com/forum/f21/circlebet-new-existing-ongoing-offers-23476-5.html#post348347

    Leave a comment:


  • piticu
    replied
    In this particular case they consider all my winnings their money ). Generaly speaking, it may depends, some say that any winnings should be considered bonus money is not standard.

    All winnings as a result of betting with bonus money is considered bonus money and cannot be withdrawn until the original wagering requirement has been met. - bonus money must be bonus + deposit amount, not just bonus, is like they wish, anyway, in my case, I didn't break any rule and all my winnings should be mine..

    Leave a comment:


  • quincunx
    replied
    I can see a big problem with these rules.How can you tell whether a bet was considered to have been made with bonus money or deposit money ? Unless they have other rules that help to say which it was,I can't see why they couldn't consider your wins to be the proceeds of bonus money,and your losses to have come from deposit money.

    Leave a comment:

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